24v ORD Bot?

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24v ORD Bot?

Postby Josephur » Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:14 pm

Has anyone successfully converted their ORD bot to use 24v? If so were you able to further increase the speed of printing reliably?

I'm doing my first ORD build, just bought the mechanical platform that comes with 12v motors, and already I'm imagining upgrades :)
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Re: 24v ORD Bot?

Postby orcinus » Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:10 pm

I honestly wouldn't recommend that.
While it might reduce the heatup and give you more torque, you'll get serious problems with microstepping.

Look here for more details:
http://hydraraptor.blogspot.com/2012/04/stepstuck.html

Low current microstepping alleviates the problem *at 12V* but does not fix it.
The higher the voltage, the worse the issue, because the lowest current step will have an even lower current.

Edit: Also, bear in mind that there are limits as to how fast you can print that aren't related to the mechatronic part of the machine - namely, the extruder. On top of that, once you cross some magic threshold, you'll have serious trouble getting vibration-related artifacts out of your prints. In short - as tempting as it might sound, "more" is not the hammer for every nail. More speed, more volts, more amps... If you want good prints, stop thinking in those terms.
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Re: 24v ORD Bot?

Postby cozmicray » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:20 am

You haven't sumo wrestled with your 12V ordbot and
you want to go to 24V --- I can't imagine why?
Lots of other things to worry about that an extra 12V
What electronics you using?
Need 24V to heat up bed in 12 seconds?
Faster printing? You have 100s of parameters to setup
-- faster last on list

Trintylabs A1 is 24V and is burning up and catching fire

More volts and amps --- bigger sparks --- more smoke -- higher flames!!

Yeah! go for it. :roll:
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Re: 24v ORD Bot?

Postby Josephur » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:55 am

LOL guys it was just to see if anyone had done it successfully and if there were benefits in printing speed without compromising quality.

I will stick with 12v for now, was just testing the waters :)

I cannot wait to get the mechanics kit in then decide on top quality components to finish the project.
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Re: 24v ORD Bot?

Postby cvoinescu » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:20 pm

I use 24 V on my 3-D printer (which is not an ORD Bot, though -- it's an eShapeOko with an extruder). It works flawlessly, and I haven't noticed any problems with microstepping. That doesn't mean there aren't any, just that I never noticed anything wrong. At any rate, I think the problem described on the linked page is of largely academic interest and makes little difference in practice. The effect, the way I understand it, is a slight positioning inaccuracy at 16x microstepping. If the assertion that 8x microstepping does not exhibit the error is true, and judging from the cause of the error, it follows that the error at 16x microstepping is smaller than the quantization error at 8x, in which case I couldn't care less. On the plus side, 24 V has the advantage of more manageable currents for the heaters.

For a new printer, I'd definitely go with 24 V again. I would not bother converting an existing printer, though, unless there was a problem (and the only part where 12 V can be a problem is the heated bed and its MOSFET and wiring -- the voltage drop at 10-12 A can be significant).
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Re: 24v ORD Bot?

Postby orcinus » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:23 pm

I've tested 1/32, 1/16 and 1/8 microstepping at 12V and 24V. At 1/8, there's not much difference. At 1/32 and 1/16 there is.
While not noticeable in what most people print (or seem to print), which is structural parts, the difference is there.

You get slight artifacts in print, but more importantly, it seems to exacerbate the "echoes" due to vibration (but only those caused by the steppers acting as a spring in the oscillatory system). Also, it makes the extruder flow more irregular (noticeable as unevenness along Z axis).

Now, obviously, if all you're going for is speed, none of this matters anyway :)
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Re: 24v ORD Bot?

Postby Digitalmagic » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:27 am

I migrated from 12v to 24v, using a rambo board v1.1b and I really find a better level of running, overall.

Actually, depending on the printer board circuitry, you can have several powerlines dedicated to heating/steppers/logic, or not.
If your 24v is feeding the usual 12v/5v regulators, the stepper ICs won't see this voltage raise, but the steppers will do, getting more torque.

Also, for printed resistors as a heatbed, it is sometimes possible to mod the resistors path to have P=U2/R=Cst while migrating 12v > 24v.
The 24v mod costed 29$ and a knife mod on the bed printed heater.
Human has 20 nail ... extruders.
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Re: 24v ORD Bot?

Postby cvoinescu » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:51 am

The PCB heated bed "MK2 B" has that "mod" built-in.
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Re: 24v ORD Bot?

Postby JLG » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:55 am

I'm building a 24v ORD Bot right now, it's my first build and didn't seem any more complicated to configure then a 12V build. It was actually recommended to me by several people and the main reason was more efficient Stepper Motor / Driver operation, as well as faster heat-up times for the extruder and hotbed. I need to get a few more things and I'll be ready to start my build for real (so far I've only assembled the mechanical platform and the extruder).
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Re: 24v ORD Bot?

Postby Digitalmagic » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:59 pm

The higher (according to your electronics) voltage, the best.
My Rambo board (and steppers) allows 35V I think, so this is something to try one of these days.

Yes, the Lava heatbed too (voltage pads), but I wanted to spare my copper/polyamide 12v heater bed, which had 4 copper paths in // (4P) that I hacked to 2//-2serial.
It is cheaper than a wallet "mod"! :)
Human has 20 nail ... extruders.
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